Works by Manny Manniness

I haven't thought about this too much. But the various comments about Alice's maturity got me thinking.

The ending scene in the movie does seem adult in the way that she finally gets the confidence to stand her ground for her opinions and thoughts. She's decisive in that scene. But the *way* she did it seems a little childish. She didn't seem to consider the thoughts and feelings of others. There was no attempt at softening her words or being considerate towards the people she was talking to. So in a way, she seemed a bit like a child listing out all the things she doesn't like without understanding that people have a right to hold differing opinions without those opinions being 'wrong'.

So taking into consideration that she's still on the borderline of being an adult versus being a child, perhaps her decision to accept the apprenticeship wasn't based on duty or ambition. Maybe it was based on excitement. On the idea of doing something completely novel. On the idea of following in her father's footsteps so she can feel closer to him.

We already know that she admires Charles more than anyone else in her life considering she's still quoting what he said more than a decade after he died. She even used the "six impossible things" idea to coach herself through the Jabberwocky battle. If she'd felt happy and understood by her father, then getting involved in trade might be her way of feeling closer to him by learning the things he knew and doing the things he did.

There are plenty of people who enter college or careers in order to be like people they admire. And very rarely do they think in advance "but will *I* like this. Will this suit *my* personality."

So maybe Alice didn't think before she accepted. Maybe it wasn't about duty or about entering a man's world so much as it was about being like someone she admires.

...I hope this wasn't too long... *sheepish*

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Of course this wasn't "too long"! Don't be silly! (And, hello, by the way! I don't think we've met before.)

This is a fantastic point and I totally agree with you. People often choose a career based on who they think they want to be or (in this case) who they want to be like.

I very much like your take on this issue as the whole "duty" thing wasn't sitting well with me, either. You're quite right: she fights with that throughout the movie. (And I find it odd that, in Underland, the right thing to do is to accept her duty/fate and fight the Jabberwocky, but Above, she doesn't accept her duty/fate to be a member/participant of Society. I mean, Society = the Jabberwocky? That's a bit of a stretch, for me. Yes, fighting the Jabberwocky gives her confidence in herself, which she needs to find her own way, but, as just_a_dram mentioned, why must that path take to a "man's world"? I, too, am baffled.)

Now I wonder exactly what Alice was thinking when she put that armor on. We only see that she realizes Underland is real and that she has gained confidence in herself, but it doesn't necessarily follow that she's going to happily risk her life fighting a monster... Hm. *more thinky-thoughts*

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Ahhh, yes! This is one of my main problems with it.

If she accepts her duty in Underland, why does she reject it above? Society doesn't equate with the Jabberwocky as far as I can tell.

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(No, we haven't met yet. Although with how many times I've reread your fics I probably should have commented before now.)

Yes, that "duty" issue is a bit perplexing... hmm... I'm not sure that Alice is the type of person that is attached to the *concept* of duty. I don't think that she would be attached to doing something simply because she considers it a duty. (Of course, that gets kind of complicated to think about because at what point does duty and responsibility intersect? They're not exactly the same after all because you can refuse to accept a duty but that's not necessarily the same as being irresponsible... right, tangent, sorry...) I think that if she fulfilled a "duty" it wouldn't be because that's the right thing to do, so much as that she had more concrete reasons for those actions. ((which just pinged on my radar as a perfect description for Ichigo - thanks! You just helped me with my BigBang!))

Anyhow, perhaps the point of equating the Jabberwocky with Society was to demonstrate that there are always going to be people expecting and pushing you towards things you don't necessarily want to do. The situation, people, and circumstances can change completely (as in Underland) but that pressure to do what other people consider your "duty" can always be present.

The point of having confidence, knowing your own mind and being capable of "muchness" isn't so much that you do whatever you want or you do the "right thing". The point is that you decide for yourself what your duties are. And whether you decide to go along with the masses or to defy convention and expectation, you have to accept that decision and the consequences that follow.

Maybe the reason we see Alice change her mind in the movie and become champion was because (upon realizing it wasn't a dream) she decided that the consequences of not acting were worse than facing down her demon.

And then that relates back to what she does Above. Because I think that part of muchness is being willing to confront decisions. Your not supposed to just take the back seat in your life and just hesitate until it's too late to do anything one way or another. I've done that before and I've never been satisfied with myself. Regardless of whether I decided to do what I was supposed to or to refuse, I was always happier if I had made the choice instead of getting pressured into it or being swept along by events (and the phrasing of that suddenly reminds me of "What You Choose").

So... maybe there's not so much of a conflict between her decision Above and Under. We're not supporting her because she did what was objectively right (by society's standards). We're supporting Alice because she decided what she thought was right and then *committed* to it.

^.^ And I guess this long ramble covered your last paragraph too. Although considering that I've **just now** thought of all this. There might be some contradictions between this comment and what I said earlier. I've only written short drabbles before so I'm not so good at sticking to one interpretation of anything. ((which... could be a problem when I try to write my Big Bang fic...))

Also, I blame you and just_a_dram completely for the fact that I've watched AiW AT LEAST 3 times today (maybe more).

Double also, I will NEVER be able to watch the movie in quite the same way again. And I now understand how my English teacher went to watch Inception and came back with a pad full of notes. There really ARE more layers to things than what you first see.

Although, I'm really amused by the fact that I've gone into more in depth character analysis here than I have for some of my English college papers. (Though this is a lot more fun than those are.)

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Hey! Glad this helped with your Big Bang! (^__^) Always happy to be of service, paving the way for bigger and better fangirl flailing. Whoo yeah!

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Hahaha ^.^ Fangirling is always fun!

Speaking of Big Bangs though, are either of you planning on writing one for this year's AiW:BB? I was thinking of maybe trying one this year except that I can't think of any plots to write.

... well that and the fact that I won't have internet access for almost all of June. Kinda puts a dent in my plans...

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Oh, I'm pretty sure I'll be writing for the AiW Big Bang. I've got several ideas that, if they can be corralled and properly introduced to one another, will be very Fun.

Why not scribble in a notebook during June? I alternate between keeping notes and writing on my computer and scribbling in my notebook. I even alternate where I write (physically) in my home. Oddly enough, it works for me. (But, then again, I am a bit odd, anyway.)

I replied a bit further down this comment thread about writing production styles, if you're interested. Mostly, I just rambled, which entertained me Greatly. (^__~)

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Hmm... I suppose I could try that. Writing by hand takes me longer but that doesn't mean I couldn't do it. I'll just have to make sure to print off all the notes for my stories before I lose access to my laptop.

Not to mention it'll give me something to do on the two 15+ hour plane rides I have to sit through.

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Plus, there's the added benefit of the inevitable Revision of Awesomeness as you transfer written words to typed. (^__~)

Long flights... oh, how I hate long flights. Why can't America be a little closer to Japan? That's all I ask!

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I know right! I can think of very few things that sound more appealing than being stuck in a gigantic metal box for a day with dozens of strangers.

And I haven't even been on a plane yet!

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*English papers can be fun too* says the professor. I'll feel professional guilt if I don't, but it is also true. Promise. :) You just have to sink your teeth into something super layered and complex that draws you in the same way a good film does.

I think it's pretty cool you have a different take on the film now. Doesn't mean you'll struggle with your big bang. It just means it will be really fresh for you.

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Well, that's true. Papers can be fun if you luck out on a good topic. Luckily though, I've finished all the English classes I'll need to take. The rest is Linguistics and Foreign Lang. classes.

And thanks for the encouragement. I've never written a piece of fiction longer than 4K so I'm a bit insecure about it at the moment. What I've got so far (it's a Bleach Big Bang) is a rough idea of what I want to happen and then a lot of disconnected scenes written out.

I'm not sure if I should try to keep those scenes as is and write the parts that are missing between them, or just start from the beginning and use those scenes as inspiration. Any suggestions?

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I write one of two ways. I either write the scenes that have sort of come to me through inspiration and then construct a story around them, connecting the scenes together. Or, I write more organically from beginning to end with maybe some notes along the way of dialog or images I want to be sure find their way into the scenes.

For me, the organic style is easier. It feels less like work, plotting to bring aspects together. However, I don't think the quality suffers either way. About half of my fics are written one way, half the other, and I don't think anyone would be able to tell which were which.

I would say go with whatever feels right to you. If you love the scenes you've got, by all means don't throw them out. Use those as your pivot points and sew the whole thing up using your outline to guide you.

Manny might have useful advice for you as well.

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Thanks for the advice, I definitely appreciate it.

I guess when I finally get time I'll just have to sit down and organize what I've got so far and see how to go from there.

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I agree with you, Dramie, on which style of writing feels less like "work". The AiW fics that I patch-worked together are "Right Where She Needs Him" and "The Champion's Hatter". With OPK and "Choosing the Path", I had a very vivid idea for the climax (and notes on the turning points which included bits of dialog to "capture the moment") and wrote from beginning to end. Sometimes I couldn't use the dialog I had planned, but in those cases I was even happier with what ended up coming out. With Wanderamaranth, our joint fics were always patch-worked. Sometimes one of us would write waaaaay ahead (plot-wise) of the other and then we'd have to go back and futz with the transitions and characterization to make it all flow.

For a first novella, I'd say it's easier to write from beginning to end (keeping your Awesome Ideas in mind) and just be open to adjusting them if you have to. It's also easier to edit from beginning-to-end because if your characters develop or change over the course of the story, then patch-working it can really throw a spanner in the works and mix everything all up. I use the patchwork style when I know precisely what tone and direction I need to go in (like with "The Champion's Hatter" I knew I wanted more than a ghost story - I wanted something very philosophical and pertaining to the cost of happiness), but I'm not sure how to bridge my Big Moments (the Mally moment on the balcony, Chessur's POV, Mirana's revelation at the end, and Alice's interaction with the Tweedles and Nivens were all LATE additions). The patchwork style usually ends with me printing out the story, cutting up sections and laying them out on my living room floor as I try to organize my thoughts coherently.

Linear writing can be irritating because you get stuck sometimes on how you want one part to flow into the next, but the rewards are great: FINALLY writing the scenes that you've been plunny'd by. (^__~) It was such a Moment of Awesome when I could FINALLY write Alice's proposal to Tarrant in "Choosing the Path". OMG. Epic moment for me.

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Thanks for the advice. I really, really do appreciate it, and at least it'll give me somewhere to start instead of procrastinating endlessly.

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That's quite possible and it certainly makes sense. People have gone into careers for much flimsier reasons.

The problem I find with the ending is that I can't find any exposition to actually defend your point or anyone else's. Which is why I tend to think of it as more the creators' tacked on solution as opposed to a natural progression of Alice's character.

You and I might find her behavior rather childish when she returns, but I'm not so sure we're supposed to view it as such. People in the theater were laughing, as in--yay, Alice!--when she was, in my opinion, acting kind of shockingly hurtful. Not just to Hamish but to her aunt as well.

So, if that's the case, I doubt the choice to go into business is supposed to be a foolhardy impulse, but one which is supposed to make us admire her as well. Maybe some people do. I certainly don't fault her for it. I just don't get it.

Ah well, it spawned a lot of Fix It Fic.

I'm just embittered on behalf of Hamish. ;)

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That's an excellent point. Movie-wise there's not enough material between the party and the boat to explain her motivations. It makes it all up the air to interpretation, and I can definitely see why you feel like they tacked it on what with the abrupt change between scenes. Stylistically though, if they had inserted more exposition after Ascot offers the apprenticeship, it probably would have messed with the flow of the movie itself. People tend to like routine in stories. Things start, they build up, you have complications, things get worse, there's a big reveal/climax/decisive moment, and things resolve and wrap up so that you've still go the high of excitement going on when the story ends. Not the way real life works, but the masses probably would have complained about the ending being dragged out if there was more included at the end.

((Also, I just looked in my copy of the novelization of the movie. It goes straight from Ascot's study to the ship as well. It also makes it clear that she forgot what happened in Underland as soon as she left the rabbit hole with a memory breaking through when she saw Absolem. *That* was not clear in the movie and I have promptly decided to ignore it as being far too depressing. Regardless of the possiblity of more memories coming back, I'm not a fan of the fae-thing where visitors forget the experience when they leave. I like my happy endings unfettered by amnesia, thank you.))

As for the childish thing, I included a bit more in my response to manniness earlier. However, I think part of the reason that most people don't find it childish is because it sort of wasn't. It takes a hell of a lot of personal courage to confront people when you know they'll disagree with what you're saying. At least it does when your not too pissed off to think straight or too young to realize your going to offend them. So I think that what she did was verging on adult behavior, she just... put forth her opinions in a slightly immature manner.

I definitely agree with you about Imogene though. That was just plain tactless. Read the first story in websandwhiskers "Choosing Wonderland" series (http://websandwhiskers.livejournal.com/62422.html) if you want to see the best response by Imogene that I've ever read. It was a truly great idea.

And her response to Hamish... well the first part of it I saw coming and approved of. The second with "that bit about your digestion" was unnecessary and tactless in a public setting. I think it was possibly the most childish and petty thing she did in the entire movie.

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I'm familiar with

websandwhiskers's take. That's the sort of thing I was *expecting* to be honest. Oh! Aunt Imogene wasn't crazy after all! Alice and her father believe in the impossible, but Aunt Imogene actually is crazy? Hmmm... Not fair.

I will have to part ways with you about her delivery not making her actions childish. I think hurting people's feelings unnecessarily is never an adult thing to do and childish people are as capable of confrontation (often done poorly) as mature people. It makes me think she is not ready for Adult Type Romantic Relationships if that is how she conducts herself. Doesn't make me like her any less necessarily, I just think she's 19.

Hamish's humiliation, comeuppance, or whatever seems way out of line to me unfortunately. Seems to me that he's merely being 'dutiful' in asking Alice to marry him, as we're given little indication that the match was any more his making than hers. Alice might be rejecting 'duty' or expectations or what have you after her return, but it doesn't mean he was part of a conspiracy against her that makes him deserving of public humiliation. But then, I always feel for the person left holding the bag. She's going to sail and he's going to have to walk around London with people whispering behind his back. It might be good for him, but I don't think it makes it excusable.

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No, Imogene being crazy really didn't seem fair, did it.

Hmm, you do have a very good point. I suppose I just find it hard to decide whether it was *completely* childish. Maybe because I'm around that age range myself. Her being 19 though really does explain it quite well. And I think I agree that she's probably to young mentally to have a Adult Type Romance quite yet. At least not without making some stupid mistakes along the way when it comes to emotional issues. But then again that's how it works for most first relationships regardless of age, isn't it?

And no, from the sound of it, the whole marriage thing looked to be arranged primarily by Hamish's mother. Poor guy just drew the short straw trying to properly propose to a very improper girl. Although, I actually felt worse for him during the "she left me standing there without an answer" moment than I did during the "digestive" comment that Alice made. After all, it must have been pretty humiliating to have everyone watching you when the girl runs off and not even getting to leave yourself because she didn't give you a response. At least her last comment probably wasn't heard by many people in comparison.

As for the rumors... do you think society at that time would actually think lower of Hamish or of Alice for the failed proposal? On one hand, Hamish is a lord(to be) that was rejected by a girl who was lower in status(?). On the other hand, Alice is the one who said no, which must seem pretty stupid from an outsider's perspective.

Would there be a bias? There usually is one based on class or gender, but I can't figure out who it would favor in this situation. Alice might get to leave and avoid the whispering (like you said) but wouldn't leaving make her an even bigger aberration in society's eyes. Hmm...

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Oh, she's completely done in society, I think. There would be no coming back from that display. I just figure that's what Alice wants anyway, and she avoids any of the unpleasantness she would have experienced by setting sail (even though I don't think that's her motivation in leaving).

Who doesn't avoid it? Her mother, her sister...those are the people that have to live with it, because in that society the sins of one of the women in the family are born by all.

As for Hamish, I can't recall it, but there was a cruel phrase that was applied to men who had been rejected in their marriage suits. This scene wouldn't affect Hamish's standing in society, but it would certainly cause him to be the focus of unkind speculation, which I imagine would take no small amount of time to die down.

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Oh ouch. I didn't even really consider that. It's definitely not going to be a good time for her poor mother and sister. It'll probably be compounded by everyone's perceptions of Imogene as well. Those nasty rumors would probably mention something like there being two generations of craziness in the family.

Alice did NOT think that through did she. When we list the consequences of what she did like this, it definitely makes the childish aspect stand out. Nasty repercussions all around.

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So, here's a thought:

The Jabberwocky is meant to equate to involuntary social conformity. So, Alice's fight with it carries over into London/Above because if she doesn't "fight back" she will, in essence, be surrendering herself to societal norms that are embodied by Lady Ascot (thereby connecting all of this back to the Red Queen)?

IF this isn't complete nonsense (and I wouldn't be surprised if it is because the idea is not 100% clear to me yet), then we could say that Alice's announcement Above was itself an attack on the Upland Jabberwocky - Expectations. But, since she's still riding her "high" from victory this causes kind of a whiplash effect. She has been forced to keep her opinions to herself for so long that when she finally has the gumption to take a stand, she can't restrain herself and it all comes pouring out.

So, essentially, the Jabberwocky is the physical manifestation of all that we really can't fight, hand-to-hand, in our lives. Our Jabberwockies take the form of social pressures, not monsters.

I guess that could be another possibility...

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Oh! I like that interpretation! That makes a lot of sense, and the idea of equating Lady Ascot to the Jabberwocky made me crack up laughing.

The idea that it all came pouring out also makes a lot of sense. Adrenaline and excitement make it humiliatingly easy to say stupid things without realizing it. I've got a few moments in my past where I would have loved to duck tape my mouth shut if possible. It seems like whenever I get too excited my brain-to-mouth filter starts malfunctioning.

It's why I like typing and hate telephones. It's easier to catch myself making mistakes.

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Oh! OK. Another thought. The odd career choice of "businessman" in conjunction with prismdropz points about movie formats leads me to think that we got that particular ending to the film not because it was an extension of Alice's character but because it was a future that we, as the audience, could relate to, so they didn't have to waste time explaining it to us.

I mean, they have like 3 minutes of movie time left for "the end", right? Well, in that time we can have Alice get married (but they already gave that the ax), Alice can return to Underland (which would have been fun but left lots of people thinking, "Great, but what's she going to DO there? Marry the Hatter?"), or have her follow in her father's footsteps. With those choices available (and with the time limit of movie endings -- I'll be honest, as much as I love LOTR, I thought the ending of the third movie went on FOREVER the first time I saw it), I guess they picked the most inspiring one.

I'm not saying it's a great ending, just of the stereotypes/archetypes/whatever available, it was the best. Even if it was a bit of an ill fit for Alice. (Kinda like if you had a navy suit and you need shoes to wear with it but your only choices are: Birkenstocks, old sneakers, or pink cowboy boots.)

Personally, I might have liked to see her friends from Underland join her Above. Kinda like how they did with the end of Labyrinth.

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And I'm one of those people who is annoyed how much they left Out of the 3rd LOTR movie. Heh.

I do think they chose it because they thought we could relate. And it would send a message about Alice that we would embrace.

Also, sneakers. Wear the sneakers. Works for the tenth Doctor.

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A message that we would relate to and embrace! Thank you! That is precisely what I meant to say!

So... I'm going to pretty much ignore everything in the movie following her soar back up the rabbit hole. I'll just chalk it all up to the limitations of Disney films and let my Alice muse tell me what she would REALLY do to make her own path. (^__~)

P.S. If I can get all these tonally-different fic ideas to mesh, my next big bang is gonna be pretty cool. I just have to find a way to reconcile my initially fun-fluff of a story with the angst in "What You Choose".

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Good thinking on the ignoring. That's pretty much what I do in my head!canon.

You've got months right? I'm sure you can work them together beautifully and come up with something totally awesome.

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"Throw canon out the window - It's the solution to all your fic-writing problems!"

...I want a T-shirt saying that. Or at least an icon (I'll make one later)

(PS: If you manage to get all these ideas to mesh, I will be so impressed that I will make you a picture!... or at least an icon. Icons I can do.

But really, the only impression I get as I read over all our comments is that if this had all come from one person, we would be sounding kind of schizophrenic.)

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